The "D" word

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Re: The "D" word

Postby AshLynne_NC » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:10 am

During my wedding ceremony we had a Sand Ceremony. We each had 2 different colored sands, and we poured them simultaneously into a jar. The significance of the ceremony is that when and if the D-word ever comes up, the person wanting the divorce has to separate all the grains of sand and bring it to our pastor.
Not only does the ceremony beautifully represent the coming-together of two people, but it also shows how intertwined we are and how we can't be separated easily.

I grew up in a family where my parents would threaten separation or divorce at least once a year. I came to expect the "big one" that would finally send them to the lawyer for the papers. Fortunately it never happened. On the contrary, it definitely skewed my idea of what a healthy, happy marriage looks like and I still find myself slipping into my parent's behavior on occasion.

If and when I ever have kids, I don't want that kind of life for them. I want them to see how my husband and I approach and work out problems as a team instead of butting heads and going for each other's throats, threatening divorce every time a hiccup in life came along.

For me, divorce is simply not an option unless-- of course-- adultery or another form of immorality came up, but I fully believe I can trust my husband that he will never do that to me. In the end, though, I can't be responsible for his actions. I can only cater to mine, so it's a constant work every day to keep myself in an attitude of Godly love towards my husband, no matter how hard it can seem at times. :)
Love, it will not betray you, dismay or enslave you-- it will set you free; be more like the man you were made to be. There is a design, an alignment, a cry of my heart to see the beauty of love as it was made to be.Mumford and Sons, Sigh No More
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Re: The "D" word

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Re: The "D" word

Postby FLGator_Chicky » Sat Aug 17, 2013 12:40 pm

mina wrote:Totally not connected to anything else in this thread:
A co-worker of mine started working at my school and she was in the process of getting a divorce. I never asked her any questions about it, but that first year she eventually took her maiden name. It was hard to remember to call her that b/c I met her under her married name. For like 2-3 years she kept to herself, I could tell what she had been through was painful, she never talked about it, I never pried. Like 3 years later she shows up at work with the biggest smile on her face AND requesting that people call her by her married name now. Apparently whatever happened to cause the divorce, her husband got help, got saved, completely changed his behavior and started to pursue her again. They got remarried over that summer. She never talked about her divorce but she always talked about how happy her husband made her now. They both came to my wedding and he was the nicest guy and they both seemed so happy. I was glad that it turned out that way for both of them. That doesn't always happen; it's a rarity.


I think that's definitely connected! It shows the mighty ways that God can move in people's lives if they allow their hearts to be open to the promptings of the Holy Spirit! What an awesome story! :)
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Heather » Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:24 am

God's permission is the only one necessary when it comes to something as serious as a divorce. Only He knows the entire story and only He can tell a person what they should and shouldn't do. I mentioned this in another thread when divorce was brought up. It's too complicated an issue to be black and white on, and I pray to God none of my friends have to experience it.
She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future. - Proverbs 31:25
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Wesley » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:15 am

A mostly blind post - and a short one at that without much exegesis.

I've been more and more convinced that there is zero requirement to divorce, but merely a few cases where divorce is permissible. Even in cases of adultery and abuse, while separation can certainly be chosen, divorce doesn't appear to be a requirement or something that a believer should pursue. If Christ is our spouse, and our sin is in essence adultery and abuse against him, he does not seek divorce no matter how grievously we sin. Furthermore, the entire book of Hosea is a black eye against the "Commit adultery, get some papers" crowd. Repeated, unrepentent adultery was being lived against Hosea by a wife that was a professional adulterer. He even had to buy her back out of her slavery. The indication is that her children were "children of adultery" which, AFAIK, means they were not his biological children.

So the heavenly bridegroom endures slights, abuses, and adultery by us every day, and his love is strong, perfect, and patient. Certainly He is not a welcome mat that is walked on, but he is not shy about convicting and disciplining, but I digress...

I've often ran over this in my mind many times. I've tried to make it as real as I can, even though I am myself not married. I cannot see myself ever seeking divorce in the case of adultery. Or even being utterly devastated. It's a sin. It's a sin like lying, stealing, gossip, and greed. 1 Cor 6:9,10 list the kinds of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who are greedy, thieves, and slanderers are listed along side of adulterers and sexually immoral. So why choose to be devastated about sexual immorality, and not backbiting and slander? "It's different!" Not according to Christ.

Proverbs 6:16 - "There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:" And what are those things that are so hated and abominable to him? Adultery isn't even listed. Not that it isn't abominable; it is because it's listed right there in the Ten Commandments. However, go read those seven things that are so hated and earn us judgement. If I'm more devastated at adultery and unfaithfulness against me than I am the other sins... the problem is that I'm taking the offense, and not that I'm genuine offended at sin for the sake of He who is sinned against. I'm showing less concern for true righteousness and more concern for my own pride and feelings. If I was truly interested in righteousness, I would be more interested in "forgiving my [sister] seventy times seven" and seeking restoration, and living 1 Cor 13 in the face of a fault.

...and here I thought I'd make a brief post. I should know better than that. :lol:

EDIT: Fixed link
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Sara » Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:32 am

Wesley wrote:A mostly blind post - and a short one at that without much exegesis.

I've been more and more convinced that there is zero requirement to divorce, but merely a few cases where divorce is permissible. Even in cases of adultery and abuse, while separation can certainly be chosen, divorce doesn't appear to be a requirement or something that a believer should pursue. If Christ is our spouse, and our sin is in essence adultery and abuse against him, he does not seek divorce no matter how grievously we sin. Furthermore, the entire book of Hosea is a black eye against the "Commit adultery, get some papers" crowd. Repeated, unrepentent adultery was being lived against Hosea by a wife that was a professional adulterer. He even had to buy her back out of her slavery. The indication is that her children were "children of adultery" which, AFAIK, means they were not his biological children.

So the heavenly bridegroom endures slights, abuses, and adultery by us every day, and his love is strong, perfect, and patient. Certainly He is not a welcome mat that is walked on, but he is not shy about convicting and disciplining, but I digress...

I've often ran over this in my mind many times. I've tried to make it as real as I can, even though I am myself not married. I cannot see myself ever seeking divorce in the case of adultery. Or even being utterly devastated. It's a sin. It's a sin like lying, stealing, gossip, and greed. 1 Cor 6:9,10 list the kinds of people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who are greedy, thieves, and slanderers are listed along side of adulterers and sexually immoral. So why choose to be devastated about sexual immorality, and not backbiting and slander? "It's different!" Not according to Christ.

Proverbs 6:16 - "There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him:" And what are those things that are so hated and abominable to him? Adultery isn't even listed. Not that it isn't abominable; it is because it's listed right there in the Ten Commandments. However, go read those seven things that are so hated and earn us judgement. If I'm more devastated at adultery and unfaithfulness against me than I am the other sins... the problem is that I'm taking the offense, and not that I'm genuine offended at sin for the sake of He who is sinned against. I'm showing less concern for true righteousness and more concern for my own pride and feelings. If I was truly interested in righteousness, I would be more interested in "[url=http://biblehub.com/matthew/18-21.htm]forgiving my [sister] seventy times seven[url]" and seeking restoration, and living 1 Cor 13 in the face of a fault.

...and here I thought I'd make a brief post. I should know better than that. :lol:



I think until you've lived adultery with an unrepentant spouse, you don't really know what you'll do. The fact of the matter is that we are not Him, and we cannot handle the same sins He can. That's why He bore our sins and not the other way 'round.
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Wesley » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:07 am

Sara wrote:I think until you've lived adultery with an unrepentant spouse, you don't really know what you'll do.

I will absolutely agree with you. Until I've lived it, it's not ever going to be real. My nearest experience to it is my parents mutual unfaithfulness lived out right before my eyes for years, with mutated scripture being thrown back and forth at eachother. Seeing things that no child's eyes should see. Hearing things that still haunt me to this day and make a 31 year old feel like a 10 year old again. That was close enough for my tastes, but still not the same at all as being married to it.

Sara wrote:The fact of the matter is that we are not Him, and we cannot handle the same sins He can. That's why He bore our sins and not the other way 'round.

That, I think, we will partially disagree on. We can't handle it on our own, no. We our children of the devil by nature, but when we are saved, we are to imitate Christ. I see unbelievers who have forgiven the murderers of their children. In their flesh!! And God's own son was slain by sinners. How unbelievers can reflect God to such a degree (for different motives, surely) is a testament to God's image in us being seen even through the mire of sin. But can we as Christians not do better than unbelievers? I still bear grudges against people for much smaller offenses than that... but I'm also evil, and a poor disciple. :P I am convinced we are called to forgive under all circumstances because we have Christ in us. Systematic, habitual sin... mine was forgiven. I can't extend less forgiveness than that and expect to be called a son of God.

Maybe I'm silly and wrong.
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Re: The "D" word

Postby FLGator_Chicky » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:16 pm

Heather wrote:God's permission is the only one necessary when it comes to something as serious as a divorce. Only He knows the entire story and only He can tell a person what they should and shouldn't do. I mentioned this in another thread when divorce was brought up. It's too complicated an issue to be black and white on, and I pray to God none of my friends have to experience it.


I completely agree. Divorce is difficult enough to walk through without having to wonder who is judging you for it. I recently had the opportunity to talk with a member of the Family Life staff and his wife. He was telling me that Family Life is developing an entire ministry dedicated to remarried couples, which I think is awesome. He acknowledged that divorce is something that the church shies away from and doesn't want to discuss - or, takes the opposite extreme and openly shuns people because they are divorced. I couldn't have agreed more and even told him that when I was a divorcee, I felt like I should have been wearing a scarlet "D" most of time.

It is easy to say, "I would do this" or "I wouldn't do that", but until someone is actually living a situation where divorce might become a reality, all they think they would or wouldn't do is just an ideal.

I definitely wouldn't have chosen divorce if I thought there was any way around it. I won't go into details about my own situation because my ex-husband's wife apparently likes to stalk me on the interwebs (the main reason for my identity change on CF). But, suffice it to say - staying in the marriage was NOT an option when I chose to leave.
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Re: The "D" word

Postby FLGator_Chicky » Sun Aug 18, 2013 1:24 pm

Wesley wrote:
Sara wrote:I think until you've lived adultery with an unrepentant spouse, you don't really know what you'll do.

I will absolutely agree with you. Until I've lived it, it's not ever going to be real. My nearest experience to it is my parents mutual unfaithfulness lived out right before my eyes for years, with mutated scripture being thrown back and forth at eachother. Seeing things that no child's eyes should see. Hearing things that still haunt me to this day and make a 31 year old feel like a 10 year old again. That was close enough for my tastes, but still not the same at all as being married to it.


That hurt my heart just to read. :( It really, really upsets me when one or both parents are so selfish that they can't step back and see the damage they are doing to the kid(s). All they can see is themselves and their spouse and the battle to "win". The problem with trying to "win" in a marriage is that everyone becomes the loser, especially the kid(s). I am sorry you had to experience what you experienced growing up. What you shared is exactly why I pray every day that the damage my boys endure is minimized and I have done my best to never make it about me or my ex.

Sara wrote:The fact of the matter is that we are not Him, and we cannot handle the same sins He can. That's why He bore our sins and not the other way 'round.

That, I think, we will partially disagree on. We can't handle it on our own, no. We our children of the devil by nature, but when we are saved, we are to imitate Christ. I see unbelievers who have forgiven the murderers of their children. In their flesh!! And God's own son was slain by sinners. How unbelievers can reflect God to such a degree (for different motives, surely) is a testament to God's image in us being seen even through the mire of sin. But can we as Christians not do better than unbelievers? I still bear grudges against people for much smaller offenses than that... but I'm also evil, and a poor disciple. :P I am convinced we are called to forgive under all circumstances because we have Christ in us. Systematic, habitual sin... mine was forgiven. I can't extend less forgiveness than that and expect to be called a son of God.

Maybe I'm silly and wrong.


I don't think what you believe is silly or wrong. But, I do think that we can often put way too much pressure on ourselves to perform to a higher standard. NOT that we should not strive daily to be more Christ-like in our thoughts, words, and actions. But, that we have to also daily acknowledge that we will always fall miserably short of the mark and need to lean on God's grace and believe it is sufficient to cover our myriad of sins.

The younger mancub is a total perfectionist (he comes by it honestly, heh) and is really struggling with the issue of sin - at the ripe old age of 8! So, I have really been trying to work with him on the GRACE aspect of salvation. I think it's the side that we, as Christians, tend to overlook the most.
Last edited by FLGator_Chicky on Sun Aug 18, 2013 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Ethnog » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:23 pm

I remember when my dads aunt left her husband everyone judged her! My dad was by her side the whole time. She was in her 60s when she left him and died soon after. She lived a very abusive life with him. My dad would tell me as a child she would come and cry to her mother (my dads grandmother) all the time because she was physically hit. He remembers to images. He was unfaithful and he hit her.
She had told everyone years later (even I remember this) that once her kids get married she would leave her husband and then when her youngest son got married she did. It took her over 30 years.
She came from a culture were divorcee never happened no matter how bad. She broke that barrier in our family. She talked about the abuse openly when everyone else closed it. I think she had a lot of courage even when people were unkind about the situation. It's so hard even mixing cultural acceptance or not into the situation.
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Re: The "D" word

Postby Wren » Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:11 am

While I'm a person who thinks "divorce is not an option," that's because of my husband. I truly believe he would never abuse me or our child(ren) and he'd never cheat on me. But I have seen too many horrific marriages or family situations for me to judge someone who's divorced. And there may not be anything in the Bible about beatings or rape (of the spouse and/or children), but I think that is largely due to the culture/times of when the books of the Bible were written.
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