The "S" Word

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Re: The "S" Word

Postby FLGator_Chicky » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:32 pm

Edwards1984 wrote:Mary already touched on some of this, but let me put in my own input. First, however, let's have a scriptural basis for our definition of "submission":

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands. [Ephesians 5:22-24]


Now let's apply some qualifications for this submission, as found in this passage:

1) This is between a wife and her husband, not a woman to all men - A lot of modern day feminazis like to harp on these verses and act as if Christianity is this evil, cruel religion that oppresses all women. The fact is, while women are not to serve in some areas (for example, church leadership: 1 Co 14:34-35; 1 Ti 2:12), the area of submission is meant to exist between a husband and her wife, not a woman to all men. That a wife submits to her husband does not mean she submits to every single man in the world in the exact same way.

2) This is submission, not slavery - I've known wives who were abused by their husbands because the latter were controlling every single aspect of the former's life. This included who they talked to, how they did every tiny thing, etc. Submitting to your husband does not mean you put on chains, dress up in rags, and keep in the kitchen making sammiches, only leaving to deliver a beer. This touches on the role of the husband in this covenantal relationship (which the apostle Paul goes on - in even greater detail - in the verses that follow), but for the purposes of this discussion, we have to recognize there is a biblical model for submission, and a distorted model for submission. That there exists a distorted model for submission does not mean we should throw out or transform the biblical model. Any man who harms his wife, belittles her, abuses her physically or verbally, treats her like a plaything, or cheats on her with another woman, is breaking his role as husband, and God will judge him for it unless he repents.

3) The reason for this submission is because of a deeper spiritual meaning - The purpose for this submission, and the context of it, is related by the apostle Paul to the church and Christ. Christ does not rule over the church in tyranny, barking commands. He's loving, he's kind, he's self-sacrificing. For the church's part, they submit to Christ's authority, accept his guidance, and seek to serve and assist him. We cannot dance around Paul's words here: the husband is head to the wife as Christ is head of the church, and wives are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ. Unless we go to seeker sensitive churches, this has clear connotations.

All the same, we must reiterate this does not mean women are slaves. For example, in regards to sexual relations, scripture does not say that women are simply to "lay back and think of England," or are to serve every tiny single fantasy or desire their husband has - instead, it speaks of sex being a mutually enjoyable thing between husband and wife, and the husband is to please and satisfy the wife as much as the wife is to satisfy and please the husband (1 Co 7:1-5). Likewise, in the raising of the children, the teaching and guidance of the mother is just as important as the father (Pr 1:8-9).

Again, we should clarify and qualify what "submission" means in the relationship between two people. Scripture never condemns a woman for speaking her mind, or offering advice for her husband. It only condemns those wives who are quarrelsome with her husband (Pr 19:13; 21:9; 25:24; 27:15) or support the sins of her husband (Ac 5:2, 9). In one sense, the wife attempts to usurp the authority of her husband (a sign of the fall; Ge 3:16b), and in the other sense, she forgets that love for God is greater than love for family (Mt 10:37). However, this submission recognizes that the husband is head of the household, and has the final say in many affairs (especially spiritual), and, so long as he acts according to scripture (which includes loving and caring for his wife as much as scripture demands of him), he is to be respected.


Awesome post is awesome.
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Re: The "S" Word

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Re: The "S" Word

Postby smackus maxiumus » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:09 pm

Image

Will she tap?!
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Wesley » Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:46 am

smacarena wrote:Image

Will she tap?!

You know, it's sad, but there's actually a small group out there that advocates "Domestic Discipline" in the name of Christ. Then again, there's a lot of garbage that gets His named stamped on it.
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Thunder Peel » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:59 pm

Wesley wrote:You know, it's sad, but there's actually a small group out there that advocates "Domestic Discipline" in the name of Christ. Then again, there's a lot of garbage that gets His named stamped on it.


I don't know much about that but I've heard of it. Part of me is curious and part of me just doesn't want to know. There are some real crazies out there.
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby smackus maxiumus » Sun Aug 11, 2013 5:28 pm

Wesley wrote:
smacarena wrote:Image

Will she tap?!

You know, it's sad, but there's actually a small group out there that advocates "Domestic Discipline" in the name of Christ. Then again, there's a lot of garbage that gets His named stamped on it.

It reminds me of the time I saw some redneck pastor say he would beat his kid for "dropping the limp wrist." Whatever that means.
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Sun Aug 11, 2013 7:07 pm

smacarena wrote:It reminds me of the time I saw some redneck pastor say he would beat his kid for "dropping the limp wrist." Whatever that means.


I think that refers to when you hold your hand up like you're saying hello, then drop it down like you're waving goodbye and gave up midway. A lot of homosexual stereotypes do it. Imagine someone doing it and saying, "Oh girlfriend, you look FAAAAAABULOUS!!!"

And no, you shouldn't beat your kids for something like that. And you shouldn't beat your wife, even if you want to call it "discipline."
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Heather » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:05 am

I have issues with the word "submission". For me it brings up all kinds of negative feelings. I just have a hard time seeing it in any positive light.
She is clothed with strength and dignity, and she laughs without fear of the future. - Proverbs 31:25
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Wesley » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:23 am

smacarena wrote:It reminds me of the time I saw some redneck pastor say he would beat his kid for "dropping the limp wrist." Whatever that means.

Sean Harris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v085W58o7ng

It's probably a bad thing that I know more about poor, heretical, and just plan unbiblical pastors than I do about good and righteous ones. :(
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:10 pm

I read Galatians 3 as removing the differences in sex, race e.t.c in anyone who is believer. I therefore am in that perhaps unpopular camp that believes that when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there is neither male nor female and so women can preach and also then that even in marriage, the rules and guidelines are works before faith but under the Spirit we are all one and will submit to each other equally with no one always having the final say. I however do not believe that those who believe otherwise are in any serious error as long as both parties are comfortable and content with how decisions are made.
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:13 pm

Heather wrote:I have issues with the word "submission". For me it brings up all kinds of negative feelings. I just have a hard time seeing it in any positive light.


Remember, first and foremost, that "submission" does not equal "slavery." Remember, likewise, that we all "submit" in one way or another, but it does not have to have negative connotations. An officer in the military has men who "submit" to his authority, but that does not mean they are enslaved to him. For example, a general tells his major what to do in relationship to his rank, but he doesn't micromanage every small detail of the major's life (his favorite movies, books, etc.). In my own job, I "submit" to my manager, but as soon as my shift ends he no longer has say over what I do. As was said earlier in the thread, that a wife "submits" to her husband does not mean the husband has complete, overarching control over her person.

r035198x wrote:I read Galatians 3 as removing the differences in sex, race e.t.c in anyone who is believer. I therefore am in that perhaps unpopular camp that believes that when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there is neither male nor female and so women can preach and also then that even in marriage, the rules and guidelines are works before faith but under the Spirit we are all one and will submit to each other equally with no one always having the final say. I however do not believe that those who believe otherwise are in any serious error as long as both parties are comfortable and content with how decisions are made.


With all due respect, that's a very poor application of Galatians 3. Here's the passage you're talking about:

Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. [Galatians 3:23-29]


Paul is not talking about the roles in marriage, and he's not talking about roles in the church - he's talking about our status before Christ, and especially in relation to the promise made to Abraham, ie. salvation. It is in Christ that there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, etc. All these people listed are heirs to God (as Paul goes on to say in Ga 4). You see that especially with the parallel passage in Colossians:

Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. [Colossians 3:9-11]


Again, what is Paul talking about here? He's saying that, in Christ, all are believers, and Christ does not play favorites of one person over another. If we are to take your interpretation of the Galatians 3 passage to be true, then you present contradictions to Paul's other writings, such as when he tells slaves to be faithful and loyal to their earthly masters (Ep 6:5), and for masters to be kind to their slaves (Ep 6:9). Wait, I thought there was neither slave nor free! Yet here, Paul is writing to Christian slaves and Christian slave-owners? There are only two solutions to this: either Paul is inconsistent, and the reliability of scripture must be questioned...or Galatians 3 is, in fact, not about literal cultural, gender or societal divisions, but merely about our divisions before the throne of God. Given the context of all these passages, I would go more so with the latter.

If your interpretation of Galatians 3 is true, then we have another dilemma, as it was brought up in previous posts: firstly, that Paul did teach there were different roles in marriage - that's very clear; secondly, that Paul did teach there were limitations to a woman's role in church leadership, that is likewise clear. Again, the dilemma in your interpretation is that you in essence quote Paul against Paul, and by taking one passage out of context and not treating it properly make Paul an inconsistent man. We should avoid doing this at all times.
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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