The "S" Word

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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:31 pm

Actually I just interpret all those other scriptures from Paul differently from how you are interpreting them. For example, I do not believe Galatians 3 was written merely to show we are all viewed the same by God. It was more to stop people from relying on the law after they have obtained salvation. i.e The people were foolish because the got salvation from grace only without using works but were then trying to use works and other earthly guidelines to please God after attaining the salvation. I was not intending to quote Paul against Paul out of context. Just pointing out that I have a different point of view based on different interpretations of many of those passages.
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Re: The "S" Word

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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:35 pm

r035198x wrote:Actually I just interpret all those other scriptures from Paul differently from how you are interpreting them. For example, I do not believe Galatians 3 was written merely to show we are all viewed the same by God. It was more to stop people from relying on the law after they have obtained salvation. i.e The people were foolish because the got salvation from grace only without using works but were then trying to use works and other earthly guidelines to please God after attaining the salvation. I was not intending to quote Paul against Paul out of context. Just pointing out that I have a different point of view based on different interpretations of many of those passages.


Could you please demonstrate:

1) How the roles of gender in marriages and within churches are relevant to Galatians 3.

2) That your interpretation of Galatians 3 does not contradict with other passages where Paul clearly does talk about the roles of gender within marriages and churches.
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:49 pm

1.) Because roles defined by law become irrelevant when Faith is come. The passage dismisses all things done because of the law to attain any level of righteousness and instead makes all equal in Christ.
2.) If you are referring to 1 Cor 14:34 then
i.) that was definitely also part of the law as that verse mentions
ii.) more to the point, there are corrections to the church at Corinth which I do not believe to be intended for universal church doctrine. 1 Cor 11:5 for example acknowledges prophesying by women which they wouldn't do if they are not allowed to speak but discourages their praying (and prophesying) with uncovered heads. If you believe that saved women should be silent in today's church then I'd expect you to also believe that women should cover their heads and men should keep short hair. I wouldn't say you are wrong in your beliefs about it if you did, just that our interpretations differ and neither issue is of any consequence to salvation or holiness IMO.
I personally believe that in Christ it is not an issue whether the husband should have the final say or not. I see no room for any such guidelines. The love for each other just leads to understanding decisions made by both parties when conflicting choices arise.
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:50 pm

r035198x wrote:1.) Because roles defined by law become irrelevant when Faith is come. The passage dismisses all things done because of the law to attain any level of righteousness and instead makes all equal in Christ.


Then why does Paul clearly talk about roles between husbands and wives in Ephesians and Colossians, and why does Paul talk about slaves and slave-masters fulfilling their roles in Ephesians? It does not appear that Paul dismissed "roles defined by law," even for believers. He does not say "Slave masters, free your slaves, for you are all one in Christ." He does not say "Wives, don't submit to your husbands, but you're both to submit to one another on completely equal terms" - that is the point of Paul tying in the relationship of husband and wife to Christ and the church. Again, Paul doesn't appear to dismiss the roles of wives and husbands, slaves and slave-masters, etc. With all due respect, you're avoiding directly answering that contention.

Likewise, are you saying all that was in the old Law is to simply be dismissed? Out of curiosity, are you coming from an Antinomian or New Covenant theology?

r035198x wrote:2.) If you are referring to 1 Cor 14:34 then
i.) that was definitely also part of the law as that verse mentions
ii.) more to the point, there are corrections to the church at Corinth which I do not believe to be intended for universal church doctrine. 1 Cor 11:5 for example acknowledges prophesying by women which they wouldn't do if they are not allowed to speak but discourages their praying (and prophesying) with uncovered heads. If you believe that saved women should be silent in today's church then I'd expect you to also believe that women should cover their heads and men should keep short hair. I wouldn't say you are wrong in your beliefs about it if you did, just that our interpretations differ and neither issue is of any consequence to salvation or holiness IMO.
I personally believe that in Christ it is not an issue whether the husband should have the final say or not. I see no room for any such guidelines. The love for each other just leads to understanding decisions made by both parties when conflicting choices arise.


If you are saying that the Law is to be dismissed, that clearly isn't what Paul says. Paul says that as a reality for the orderly functions of the church is that women are "not permitted to speak," and "it is improper for a woman to speak in church" (1 Co 14:34-15). Likewise, that is not the only passage where it is spoken of, for I earlier referenced likewise 1 Timothy 2:12, in which Paul - writing to Timothy under the context of affairs of the church - says, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." Therefore, it does not seem to be an issue isolated to the Corinth church or their specific problems.

In jumping to 1 Corinthians 11:5 (which is not necessarily speaking about affairs of the church, but about the functions of the genders (which, by the way, completely contradicts your entire point). You likewise, once again, unintentionally pit Paul against Paul, for on the one hand you cite a verse where Paul commands women not to speak in church, and then in another moment you cite a verse claiming that Paul desires women to speak in church. Speaking as a brother in Christ, I would highly suggest that you study and review the scriptural foundation for this subject in earnest before speaking or writing on it again. You can keep saying "I personally believe" or "I think," but when it is your opinion versus the word of God, this is a ground we should seek to avoid at all costs.
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:18 pm

Edwards1984 wrote:Then why does Paul clearly talk about roles between husbands and wives in Ephesians and Colossians, and why does Paul talk about slaves and slave-masters fulfilling their roles in Ephesians? It does not appear that Paul dismissed "roles defined by law," even for believers. He does not say "Slave masters, free your slaves, for you are all one in Christ." He does not say "Wives, don't submit to your husbands, but you're both to submit to one another on completely equal terms" - that is the point of Paul tying in the relationship of husband and wife to Christ and the church. Again, Paul doesn't appear to dismiss the roles of wives and husbands, slaves and slave-masters, etc. With all due respect, you're avoiding directly answering that contention.

I don't see what arguing against what was not said is going to give us.


Edwards1984 wrote:Likewise, are you saying all that was in the old Law is to simply be dismissed? Out of curiosity, are you coming from an Antinomian or New Covenant theology?

What I said is that Galatians 3 teaches that Christians should not strive to achieve Holiness through any guidelines from the law. As to your second question, I'd prefer not to be dumped into either category.


r035198x wrote:If you are saying that the Law is to be dismissed, that clearly isn't what Paul says. Paul says that as a reality for the orderly functions of the church is that women are "not permitted to speak," and "it is improper for a woman to speak in church" (1 Co 14:34-15). Likewise, that is not the only passage where it is spoken of, for I earlier referenced likewise 1 Timothy 2:12, in which Paul - writing to Timothy under the context of affairs of the church - says, "I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." Therefore, it does not seem to be an issue isolated to the Corinth church or their specific problems.

In jumping to 1 Corinthians 11:5 (which is not necessarily speaking about affairs of the church, but about the functions of the genders (which, by the way, completely contradicts your entire point). You likewise, once again, unintentionally pit Paul against Paul, for on the one hand you cite a verse where Paul commands women not to speak in church, and then in another moment you cite a verse claiming that Paul desires women to speak in church. Speaking as a brother in Christ, I would highly suggest that you review this subject in more earnest before speaking or writing on it again. You can keep saying "I personally believe" and "I think," but when that is contrary to the word of God, it is your opinion versus scripture.


I don't know Ed, it seems to me like I replied directly to your questions but you didn't seem to acknowledge any of the things I actually posted. Do you not believe that the law is inferior to grace? Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine? Do you believe women should wear hats in church today?
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:36 pm

r035198x wrote: I don't see what arguing against what was not said is going to give us.


Because it is relevant to your conclusion. Which brings us to your next post:

r035198x wrote:What I said is that Galatians 3 teaches that Christians should not strive to achieve Holiness through any guidelines from the law. As to your second question, I'd prefer not to be dumped into either category.


Your earlier statement was this:

r035198x wrote:I read Galatians 3 as removing the differences in sex, race e.t.c in anyone who is believer. I therefore am in that perhaps unpopular camp that believes that when under the guidance of the Holy Spirit there is neither male nor female and so women can preach and also then that even in marriage, the rules and guidelines are works before faith but under the Spirit we are all one and will submit to each other equally with no one always having the final say.


Your reference to Galatians 3 was to argue the differences in sex, race, etc., and concluded from this that husbands and wives share equal roles with no submission of one to the other, and that women can preach, etc. I pointed out that Paul was not talking about roles in marriage or society, but our place before Christ - in faith, we are neither slave nor free, male nor female, etc. I likewise pointed out that Paul clearly does teach that there are roles to be played by people, both husband and wife, slave or master, etc.

So the reason it is important to address what is not being said is because you are avoiding having to deal with the passages of scripture which: 1) clearly address the topic of roles in marriage and speak of submission; 2) appear to contradict your overall point. Are you saying that Christ and the church "submit to each other equally" - as in, exactly equally? The church's submission to Christ was the basis for Paul's statement that wives should submit to their husbands. Again, he clearly does see roles in marriage between a husband and wife - and a believing husband and wife.

r035198x wrote:I don't know Ed, it seems to me like I replied directly to your questions but you didn't seem to acknowledge any of the things I actually posted. Do you not believe that the law is inferior to grace? Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine? Do you believe women should wear hats in church today?


I did acknowledge what you posted, I merely pointed out the problems in them. You attempted to attack the citation from 1 Corinthians by jumping to another chapter and (again, inadvertently) attempting to contradict Paul with Paul. I pointed out that Paul brings up the subject of a woman's role in regards to church leadership in another section of scripture, showing that it wasn't just a matter for Corinth. So when you ask: "Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine?", we find two problems:

1) I never argued all that was given to the Corinth church was universal doctrine, therefore that question is a straw man.

2) I pointed out that, in regards to the role of women, Paul spoke on this elsewhere, showing it wasn't just a Corinth-alone issue - unless you are begging the question that Timothy was in Corinth at the time.

I fully acknowledged and answered your post, but I did so under the context of this conversation.
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:02 pm

Edwards1984 wrote:Your reference to Galatians 3 was to argue the differences in sex, race, etc., and concluded from this that husbands and wives share equal roles with no submission of one to the other, and that women can preach, etc. I pointed out that Paul was not talking about roles in marriage or society, but our place before Christ - in faith, we are neither slave nor free, male nor female, etc. I likewise pointed out that Paul clearly does teach that there are roles to be played by people, both husband and wife, slave or master, etc.
Playing different roles is not the same as submission. I'm not sure why you keep claiming that I said we play same role. Raising arguments against that is pointless since it's a claim I never made.

Edwards1984 wrote: So when you ask: "Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine?", we find two problems:

1) I never argued all that was given to the Corinth church was universal doctrine, therefore that question is a straw man.

2) I pointed out that, in regards to the role of women, Paul spoke on this elsewhere, showing it wasn't just a Corinth-alone issue - unless you are begging the question that Timothy was in Corinth at the time.

I fully acknowledged and answered your post, but I did so under the context of this conversation.

So you believe that women being silent was universal while veils was only for Corinth?
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Edwards1984 » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:14 pm

r035198x wrote:Playing different roles is not the same as submission. I'm not sure why you keep claiming that I said we play same role. Raising arguments against that is pointless since it's a claim I never made.


Permit me to compare positions:

r035198x wrote:...under the Spirit we are all one and will submit to each other equally with no one always having the final say.


The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 5:22-24 wrote:Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.


Please explain these two positions and how they do not contradict.

r035198x wrote:
Edwards1984 wrote: So when you ask: "Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine?", we find two problems:

1) I never argued all that was given to the Corinth church was universal doctrine, therefore that question is a straw man.

2) I pointed out that, in regards to the role of women, Paul spoke on this elsewhere, showing it wasn't just a Corinth-alone issue - unless you are begging the question that Timothy was in Corinth at the time.

I fully acknowledged and answered your post, but I did so under the context of this conversation.

So you believe that women being silent was universal while veils was only for Corinth?


I answered the question regarding veils in another thread. As I pointed out there and a previous post, Paul is honing in on the roles of the gender between one another and their identity (see especially 1 Co 11:3) - which, again, contradicts the argument you were making that we are all literal equals because of what Galatians 3 says.

Now I have to ask, more directly related to the topic: do you deny what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:12, which is perfectly in line with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? Or do you presume that Paul was writing to Corinth when he said those words to Timothy?
"And how the Lord has a little left me, how weak do I find myself! O, let it teach me to depend less on myself, to be more humble, and to give more of the praise of my ability to Jesus Christ." Jonathan Edwards (from his journal)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby Heather » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:47 am

Edwards1984 wrote:
Heather wrote:I have issues with the word "submission". For me it brings up all kinds of negative feelings. I just have a hard time seeing it in any positive light.


Remember, first and foremost, that "submission" does not equal "slavery." Remember, likewise, that we all "submit" in one way or another, but it does not have to have negative connotations. An officer in the military has men who "submit" to his authority, but that does not mean they are enslaved to him. For example, a general tells his major what to do in relationship to his rank, but he doesn't micromanage every small detail of the major's life (his favorite movies, books, etc.). In my own job, I "submit" to my manager, but as soon as my shift ends he no longer has say over what I do. As was said earlier in the thread, that a wife "submits" to her husband does not mean the husband has complete, overarching control over her person.



I appreciate these thoughts :)
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Re: The "S" Word

Postby r035198x » Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:54 am

Edwards1984 wrote:Please explain these two positions and how they do not contradict.

The same way you don't see a contradiction in making women keep quiet in church but allow them to not have their heads covered while praying.

Edwards1984 wrote: So when you ask: "Do you believe all written to Corinth is for universal church doctrine?", we find two problems:
1) I never argued all that was given to the Corinth church was universal doctrine, therefore that question is a straw man.

The point is that church doctrine guides given in Paul's letters (to whichever church) are not universal church doctrine but instead applicable to relevant cultures that had specific moral guidelines from previous traditions. That's why he used specific customs to explain them (like how the law already expressed submission for women).
Why do you believe that letters to Corinth are not universal church doctrine while the rest of the letters are?
Edwards1984 wrote:
2) I pointed out that, in regards to the role of women, Paul spoke on this elsewhere, showing it wasn't just a Corinth-alone issue - unless you are begging the question that Timothy was in Corinth at the time.
Again, roles that sexes play is different from submission. You are creating a weak argument I never made and wasting your time attacking it. Where did I mention that men and women play the same roles?

Edwards1984 wrote:
I fully acknowledged and answered your post, but I did so under the context of this conversation.

Not really. You just created weak arguments that you concluded I must believe due to my presumed lack of knowledge of scripture and then attacked them by arguing based on what was not said in scripture.

Edwards1984 wrote: Now I have to ask, more directly related to the topic: do you deny what Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:12, which is perfectly in line with 1 Corinthians 14:34-35? Or do you presume that Paul was writing to Corinth when he said those words to Timothy?

And again, specific issues troubling a specific group of people that lived in a specific culture which inherited moral guidelines from the traditions of the law.

Galatians 3 does not just teach that we are equal before God, more to my point, it teaches that following guidelines of holiness/humility/submission or whatever appears godly from the law is foolishness when faith is come.
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