gender roles

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gender roles

Postby little_tigress » Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:03 pm

So I've decided to start writing something about submission and gender roles after seeing a few facebook posts that rubbed me the wing way (and no I won't share what was said :D)

So in preparation for that I want to do a little more study from both sides of the issue: complementarianism V. Egalitarianism.

So here's my question: what are your thoughts of gender roles? Do they exist? If so, how should they be lived out in a practical way? What verses/books/websites/teachers/etc.. lead you to believe what you do?
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Qu'ils sont beaux sur les montagnes, Les pieds de celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie la paix! De celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie le salut! De celui qui dit à Sion: ton Dieu règne!
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gender roles

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Re: gender roles

Postby Rhamiel » Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:04 pm

Such an interesting topic Little Tigress

I would say that I hold a complementarian view, but not a super strict interpretation of this.

I think that many gender roles ARE products of our society, and can change as society changes.

I have been watching a channel on Youtube that is comprised of rants from an "anti-feminist" atheist
while I do not agree with her atheistic views, her insight on history, culture and biology has been very interesting.

even in the womb, males and females experience exhibit differences, biology can prove this through the ratios of estrogen and testosterone in men and women
studies have shown that women are better at empathy and interconnectivity of ideas and men are better at laser like focus and compartmentalization.

The Bible describes Eve as a helpmate to Adam, does this not make sense that those who are best at empathy and building up social relations and interconnectivity of ideas would be best suited to a supportive role while those who have a propensity to devote full attention to a single problem might be called to have the final decision on that problem?

love is sacrificial in nature
we see this most clearly in Christ on the cross

a man should be willing to give everything he has to his family, a sacrifice of self, always putting their wellbeing and safety above his own
this is a sacrifice

a woman should be willing to submit to the lawful and just decisions of her husband, this abandonment of total self sovereignty is also a form of sacrifice.
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Re: gender roles

Postby Wren » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:26 am

I'm sick, tired, and fuzzy headed right now, but I can't completely let this thread go without saying something. I'm not a huge fan of gender roles. Sure, I'm doing the traditional Western female role of SAHM, but I think there's absolutely nothing wrong with a SAHD. I do not believe that biology has much of anything to do with sex differences. Testosterone levels do make boys more active, but I believe most differences are due to socialization. I think it's a natural part of society to want to categorize people and put them in prescribed roles, to make society run smoothly. But people often don't fit quite so neatly into those roles preassigned for them. It makes much more sense for people to follow the gifts God gives them and not what is decided they should do or be based on having a penis vs. a vagina. Despite the stereotypes, some women are much better with money than some men. Some men are more nuturing than some women. If a woman wants to be a CEO and the man a SAHD, then I don't have a problem with that.

I guess my bottom line is that people should do what works for them and their family, not worry about how other people are living if it's not hurting anyone. (That's not a jab at the discussion of the topic, but the people who would have issue with a SAHD or adhere rigidly to gender roles.)
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Re: gender roles

Postby little_tigress » Sat Jun 07, 2014 2:01 am

Thanks for sharing you two!

Wren I hope you feel better soon!
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Qu'ils sont beaux sur les montagnes, Les pieds de celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie la paix! De celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie le salut! De celui qui dit à Sion: ton Dieu règne!
Ésaïe 52:7
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Re: gender roles

Postby mina » Sat Jun 07, 2014 5:53 am

They exist and I believe gender roles are heavily influenced by society and tradition. I don't think people who choose to follow traditional gender roles are wrong; nor do I believe that those that choose not to be traditional are wrong. Having a choice to choose what you are most comfortable with is a good thing. I think when people enter into choosing for others or judging them for it ; then that's wrong. Right now I'm staying at home , although I do work and earn money in nontraditional job like ways. I'm 100% sure I don't care what anyone has to say about it. If it works for us , then that is all that matters. Nothing makes me more disgusted than someone making ignorant derogatory comments about me as a wife or a woman (or anyone no matter their gender) because I don't have a traditional 9-5 job or aspirations to work on wall street. I think there is a lot of shame-ing that can happen when a woman DOES chose a traditional role nowadays, just like I think there can be lots of shame-ing when you also choose to go outside a traditional role (work wise or in the home). I've had it when I worked and when I wasn't in a traditional job. Basically, no matter what you do, someone can't stand it and will let you know- so the easiest solution is to just do what is best in your situation and don't try to please people that don't matter in your personal life. When we have kids; if we have boys ; they can have dolls if they want; if we have girls they can play with trucks or dress like batman, or not. If we have a girl and pink and princesses make her happy; then that's fine too.
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Re: gender roles

Postby little_tigress » Sat Jun 07, 2014 6:12 pm

Thanks for your thoughts, Mina. I agree - you cannot please everyone. Which is kinda funny considering that we live in the age of "tolerance" and yet we're all still expected to fit into the same boxes.

Also. I remember playing with trucks and cars and wrestling with my brother because we were both big WWF fans as kids. Oh and street hockey. I played that alot when I was a kid. But I couldn't be bothered to play with my dolls :D
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Qu'ils sont beaux sur les montagnes, Les pieds de celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie la paix! De celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie le salut! De celui qui dit à Sion: ton Dieu règne!
Ésaïe 52:7
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Re: gender roles

Postby mina » Sat Jun 07, 2014 7:20 pm

I always think it's so weird that women are usually quick to be petty about women staying at home or being in the work force. Sometimes men can be jerks about it too, but I've usually received direct rudeness from women.
I played with dolls AND played with "boy " toys. I grew up with all boys. So, I could be girly girl and also enjoy trucks and cars and whatever else. I don't it has to be either or . My parents didn't care much about what I played with either or what my brothers played with. I remember my grandfather telling me I couldn't go fishing with them; b/c girls don't fish, but my dad told me I could go if I wanted to b/c everyone can fish. And my dad cooked a lot at home when I was growing up. He enjoyed it and was/is a great cook. And actually when he retired, he kicked my mom out of the kitchen and took over. He cooks like 95% of the time now for my mom and loves it; and she loves it too. They do occasionally cook together, but mostly it's him. I guess I never really grew up worrying or thinking about fitting a proper gender role; I could be and do what I wanted. In high school, I took AP courses in Science and Math and was one of the only girls there. I hate Math, but loved Science and did well in both. I was never made to feel by my parents that I shouldn't be excelling in those fields. My peers did though try to make me feel that generally I shouldn't be in those classes.
Also, growing up I was never really religious; we went to church occasionally and VBS; but I never really knew what all the Bible teaches or what denominations teach on gender roles until I was a teenager. That said, I do respect my husband and I suppose I submit to him and those things are important to me, but he also respects me and does what I ask of him as well; I just think that's what people do when they love one another. We both feel that neither is going to ask the other to do something outrageous or absurd just to exert power over the other and thus get an ego trip, b/c we trust one another in love. So, I guess we are complementarianism?? I don't even know the meaning of most of that terminology. I do like cutesy pictures of 50's life and housewives and fashion from that time era, but I feel that in no way contradicts or offends with who I am or what I choose to be in life due to circumstance or passion.
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Re: gender roles

Postby little_tigress » Sat Jun 07, 2014 8:07 pm

I'm suddenly reminded of the movie Mona Lisa Smile. One of the girls in the movie was in college working towards becoming a lawyer when she changed her mind, got married, and decided to be a housewife instead. Which got her art professor all up in arms because a woman could be anything she wanted to be and not just a housewife. To which the girl responded with something like, "if I can be anything I want to be, why can't I be a housewife?"
❥ ~❥~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥
Qu'ils sont beaux sur les montagnes, Les pieds de celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie la paix! De celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie le salut! De celui qui dit à Sion: ton Dieu règne!
Ésaïe 52:7
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Re: gender roles

Postby mina » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:32 pm

It's true though; if a modern woman chooses to be a stay at home wife or mom; she shouldn't be demonized for it. I don't think stay at home dads should be demonized either and I think it's a sad reflection on society (or whatever) if the belief is that spending time caring for your family or children full time is pathetic or it means that you are throwing your life away. I don't think that all women should be forced to be housewives or SAHM's, but I also don't think that women that choose that or families that choose to go in that direction should be ridiculed for it. Nor do I think that women that choose a career (out of necessity or want) should be ridiculed for that. Choice, if you can, is a beautiful thing. I had a conversation with another teacher at the school I sub at……she is around my age and just got married. She and her husband never see each other during the week. Their work schedules don't permit it. She was talking about how when she has children she will hopefully get to stay home with them, but feels like she has to work no matter what or she is a traitor to women everywhere…..I think that there is a big difference in the way people look at that according to where you live. I grew up in the southern US and there it's generally accepted and extremely possible for one parent to stay home with children. I knew lots of SAHM's and some SAHD's, some housewives with no kids, and it was not a big deal. When I moved to the north, I immediately got asked "what do you do? where do you work?" . And people were taken aback, even angry, that I'm at home or working from home; almost like "how dare you?". And I've noticed that here in the North , both partners usually work: to afford the nanny , and the gardener, and the housekeeper , and so on….. It's just a different mentality ; along with the cost of living is absurdly high. All I know is what works for us, and I'm not willing to make big bucks to keep up with all the neighbors, pay for extras we don't really need, hate life, and never see my husband or children. I don't think the ability to make a choice as to what works best for your individual family; makes a woman a traitor to all women- no matter if that includes work or staying at home. Somewhere along the line; freedom to choose what is best for you, became extremely twisted to mean things that it was never intended to mean. I'm sorry if i'm going off the topic of what this thread was intended for!!!! :oops:
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Re: gender roles

Postby little_tigress » Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:47 pm

Not at all! I'm happy that you're sharing all these thoughts with us! Thank you, and feel free to keep going if you have any more to share :)

I am very sorry though to hear that you've gotten that attitude though. A few years ago, when I thought I wanted kids, I remember talking to a girl I worked with about our aspirations and she had all these goals of working in the theatre and becoming a career actress. Then she asked me what I wanted to do and I told her something like, "I really think I'd be happy staying at home and raising my kids." And that left her completely speechless :D
❥ ~❥~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥ ~ ❥
Qu'ils sont beaux sur les montagnes, Les pieds de celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie la paix! De celui qui apporte de bonnes nouvelles, Qui publie le salut! De celui qui dit à Sion: ton Dieu règne!
Ésaïe 52:7
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